Redefine Motherhood, Let Go Of Regret with Ruthie Ackerman
In this episode of Good Enough For Now, author and parent Ruthie Ackerman talks candidly about the power of using your voice and the complicated, internalized shame that has colored her journey to becoming a mother.
Ruthie Ackerman is an award-winning journalist and writer who has worked with hundreds of writers, at all levels, to unearth the story beneath their stories and help shape the mess and muck of their lives into tales they’re proud to tell.
Tune in to hear about the new book Ruthie is working on, where she questions preconceived notions of motherhood and works to eliminate the shame that characterized her experience, and the experience of many women, in becoming a parent.
LISTEN NOW
Here are three reasons why you should listen to this episode:
Hear a candid account on the complicated journey to parenthood and how it affects your understanding of self
Unravel the internalized shame that surrounds not having it all figured out
Discover the reality women who undergo fertility preservation face
Highlights
Four years ago, Ruthie left (or got laid off from) her job as Deputy Editor at Forbes Women. Though she was hesitant at first, she decided to launch a writing workshop. She’s still having a hard time defining herself, leaving the corporate persona behind and defining where she is now.
One class led to another led to another, and four years later, I'm now a writing coach, instructor, book dominatrix.
The funny thing is that when people ask me what I do, I still have a hard time… coach feels weird. I don't like a teacher…So here I am, running a business for four years that's been wildly successful by my own definition. And yet, I have no idea what to call myself.
When it comes to defining success, Ruthie looks internally and at her impact.
I feel like I know it's success because people tell me that I'm changing their lives in various ways…I feel like if I can pay the bills and I can see my daughter and I can make my own schedule that's success right now.
This is a vastly different definition than the one she adopted when she was younger.
When I was younger…I had to want to be at the top. And now at 45, I'm like, you know what, it's much smaller. Not that my aspirations or ambitions are smaller, but what I want is more personalized to what I want from the inside rather than the outside.
With respect to measuring her success, Ruthie again looks at impact instead of the number of bylines she has amassed or the prestige of the publication.
Now it's about what stories do I wanna put out in the world? And what's the story that only I can tell, right?
She sees excitement as synonymous with success because that is what fuels her.
I think what feels valuable to me, what feels good to me is to be able to create a business and create a career that, you know, fulfills something inside of me. It's less about the money or it's definitely not about the fame.
In fact, Ruthie has been laid off from every job she has acquired in the media landscape, which is not uncommon in an ever-changing industry. Though she viewed them as failures, she’s learned to redefine them as steps that have led her to where she is now.
For so long, I felt like I was on some long winding road, but didn't know where the road was going. And now I look back and I was like, the road was leading here.
As she was figuring out what worked in her career, she also struggled with whether or not she wanted to be a mother.
We're told so many things about who we're supposed to be in the world. How do we know what we really want versus what we're told versus wanting to wanting to fit in? I just had no idea.
She looked outward and read books and interviewed mothers and then she looked inward and checked in with herself. She did want kids--but she was married to a man that didn’t. Life seemed to make the decision for her, but it didn’t seem right.
I should feel lucky. This is enough, right? Why is this not enough for me? And so I moved forward and married him on the one hand telling myself, well, we don't need to have a kid. At least I have love.
She felt frustrated that she subscribed to the idea that she needed to create a masterpiece or have a career that would make not having kids worth it--like Oprah. Still unsure of whether she wanted kids, she decided to freeze her eggs.
I was freezing my eggs at 35, but then I was 36 and 37 and 38. And I still had no idea. And that really felt, I mean, each year felt more and more disheartening.
As she was moving through these feelings, she felt paralyzed by shame.
I had married a man who I knew didn't want children and I thought maybe I wouldn't, but I was willing to give it a try. I was filled with so much shame that I had done it wrong that I had dragged this man down with me in some way because I couldn't figure my shit out that I wanted too much.
She mobilized her shame and experience with fertility preservation into action for Don’t Put All Your (Frozen) Eggs in One Basket, in the New York Times’ Modern Love column. She was energized about shedding light on this experience for other women that might be going through the same thing.
Also, when I read in the media about why women weren't having children, it was always because we are focused on our careers and that wasn't my experience…I was thinking about this a lot, but I just happened to be unsure of what I wanted to do with the rest of my life in terms of becoming a mom or not.
Though she was prepared to stay with him, Ruthie’s husband decided to leave her.
I think it's hard to know what we want as women. I think even when we think we know what we want, we tell ourselves we don't deserve it. And I was convinced that even if I did realize at that point I wanted a child, I had to stick with my decision and my commitment to marry this man who I loved and who loved me to be fair. And so I wouldn't have left. Is that brave? I don't know anymore.
She was heartbroken, but Ruthie ventured on the dating apps. She had it down to a science--in six months, she went on sixty dates. Eventually, she met someone. Six months after they met, he died by suicide.
Still reeling from her divorce, Ruthie struggled to not internalize her heartbreak and wondered if her insistence on having children weighed too heavily on him.
And to be honest, listen, women are told we're too much. We're told we're too needy…I mean, I thought all of those things, it was internalized, but internalized from the outside as well as the inside.
Then, six months later, she met Rob, her current partner.
We laughed that we had three ghosts in our relationship that we were bringing with us––my marriage, my boyfriend's death and his ex. And then we were trying to make it work. By then, I was 39 and a half and I was like, I want a baby. Now.
But Rob needed time, and Ruthie was already racing against the clock. When she turned 41, they decided to thaw out her eggs. They hoped one of the fourteen would be viable.
Ultimately none of those 14 frozen eggs worked. So there I was: 41, you know, going on 42, and we had no frozen eggs.
Now, Ruthie was not just heartbroken. She was angry. They continued to try through IVF, but both rounds failed. They spent over 75K, and the failures forced resentment to form between Ruthie and Rob. Eventually, the couple decided to use donor eggs. Once again, Ruthie was overcome with internalized shame.
Again, I hadn't been strategic enough. I married the wrong man. I didn't think about having a baby in my twenties. I didn't even know in my mid thirties if I wanted to have a baby. And so it felt in a way, like I had cursed myself, like I had cursed myself to the extent that I was being punished now, by not being able to have a baby with my own DNA.
Today, Ruthie has a healthy and happy two-year-old daughter, who she loves more than life itself.
I'm so in love now, almost two years in, but I don't think that I was so in love the first minute she was born…And I think, you know, I couldn't love her more if she was from my own DNA. And then there's a little voice in the back of my head that says, but how do you know that?
Just as she doesn’t know how to quite identify her career, Ruthie is also still working on gaining a firm definition of what it means to be a mother.
I feel like I have to work twice as hard to convince myself, and, in my mind, convince [my daughter] that I'm her mother, and that is a lot of emotional labor. And I really hope that someday I can let go of that and just be.
Ruthie is currently channeling that line of questioning into a book.
It's about these questions….what does it mean to be a mother? What does DNA even mean? What is the maternal instinct? Do we have a maternal instinct?...What does it mean to love a child? And I don't know the answer.
She hopes in sharing her story, she can unravel some of the shame that paralyzed her throughout her journey of womanhood and motherhood.
We don't get to talk about these conversations and there's a lot of shame around them. And that's why I'm writing this book…You know, the hope is not just for me to tell my story. This is one story. It’s not that important. But I do think the questions that I'm hoping the book raises are really important questions.
What Good Enough For Now means to Ruthie:
I think to myself, I'm in a relationship that's really loving where we both love each other deeply and respect each other. I finally have a baby and there's no question that it was the right decision to have a baby. I can't imagine it in any other way. I can't imagine if I had stayed in my marriage and not had a baby. And finally, I mean, I guess this brings us back to where we started. I have created a career for myself that feels really fulfilling in all of these ways that I don't think a career at a media company, even a big media company with a fancy name, would've made me feel. So it, in a way, there's like a pride for myself in really having to dig through the muck, as I like to say, and create the life that I wanted. But, damn, like, it took so much. Did I have to go through all of this? Wasn't there an easier way? I mean, sometimes I'm just like Ruth, like, couldn't you just be happy? But no, I wouldn't have been. And so now I am happy and it is good enough. And there are plenty of times where I'm like, I'm so fucking tired, or I'm so this or I'm so that, but you know what? This is good enough.
ABOUT
Ruthie is an award-winning journalist and writer who has worked with hundreds of writers, at all levels, to unearth the story beneath their stories and help shape the mess and muck of their lives into tales they’re proud to tell. Ruthie approaches the writing process with the three I’s: Inspire, Ignite, Illuminate. Whether her students are writing memoirs, fiction, or personal essays, or they’re still finding their footing, she starts by inspiring them with the writers she loves and admires. She then ignites their creativity and passion and illuminates the way forward to bring their stories to life.
Ruthie’s students’ essays have appeared in outlets including The New York Times, Catapult, Tablet, Health Magazine, Well + Good, and The New England Journal of Medicine and their books have been selected for representation by renowned book agents and their manuscripts have been sold to Big Five publishers.
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Harper (00:00):
Welcome Ruthie.
Harper (00:02):
So happy to have you here. Can you tell us a little bit about where you are in your life?
Ruthie (00:10):
Well, I guess it depends what day it is, how I, about four years I, or Forbes was a deputy editor at the time. And all of a sudden I was like, what am I gonna do with my career? And my life, I'd been an editor and journalist for many, many years, and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. But so many of the writers that I'd been working with, I had about 200 writers that were writing for me when I was at Forbes. And so many of them said, is there a way for us to work together? And I didn't know the answer to that. And so I decided I would launch one writing workshop. I would thought I'll get a job at another media company at some point. I mean, for as long as I was in media, media has been going downhill and all my friends had gotten laid off a million times.
Ruthie (01:14):
I had been laid off a million times and yet I kept finding myself like just going back to media companies. Cause that's what I knew. And so when some of my writers had said, how can I work with you? Like I'll launch one writing class. I'm not gonna tell anybody about the writing class, because if I tell anyone, then it's a real thing. And when it fails, I'll be totally embarrassed. So I basically only sent it out to small group of people that I with before. And one class led to another led to another and four years later, I'm now, uh, writing coach instructor, book Dori as, um, as one particular client you guys know have called me. But the funny thing is is that when people ask me what I do, I still have a hard time saying like, so coach feels weird. I don't like a teacher. I feel like I'm more than that. So here I am running a business for four years. That's been wildly successful by my own definition. And yet I have no idea what to call myself.
Stephanie (02:21):
What's so interesting is that when you started that story, it was which narrative are you going to include? You either got laid off or you left and then people asked a question and you answered with, well, sure, I'll try this, but I don't know if it's gonna be successful yet. So not gonna tell anyone. So now that you have, like you just said for four years, you know, by any stretch of your definition of success, how much of it is, you know, your own kind of looking for a role model versus having to be one and figure it out. How much of that dynamic has played into your confidence as you've launched your own business and sort of where you are with it now?
Ruthie (03:09):
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. Steph. I dont know the answer about role models is I don't know. I think I look at my friends and people that I respect women. I respect and the media industry and other adjacent industries. And everyone's had to out for themselves. There really, isn't a, I feel like I know it's success because people tell me that I'm changing their lives in various ways. And that always feels good. I feel like it's success. Cause I can see my daughter for a few hours a day and I can make my own schedule and I don't have to worry about like, will we have enough food to eat or, you know, can we pay our bills? I'm not gonna be, uh, rich anytime soon. But I feel like if I can pay the bills and I can see my daughter and I can make my own schedule that's success right now. I think when I was younger, um, I know when I was younger, success meant more high profile gigs, more fame remember specifically wanting to be a cite executive, not thought I had to so sort respect that also thought there was feminist feminist. I had to want to be at the top. And now at 45, I'm like, you know what, it's much smaller. Not that my aspirations or ambitions are smaller, but what I want is more personalized to what I want from the inside. Rather the outside.
Harper (04:50):
I'm wondering how you now measure success because I think about you having written for the New York times and other major platforms, those are huge accomplishments. So while you may not be a C-suite executive, you're still tied to these major names and you get credibility for them. And obviously have clients who love you and adore you, us included. And I think it's important to recognize how do you define success and how do you measure it on a regular basis?
Ruthie (05:21):
Again, I think it's like compare how I used to feel versus how I feel now. Right? And I used to want bylines and all these big publications, because again, I thought people were gonna respect me for it. There was a prestige to it. And now it's about what stories do I wanna put out in the world? And what's the story that only I can tell, right? For lots of publications, which I understand is a huge privilege because I've worked really hard in my career to get to this point. And now I can do that. But to me, success is telling the story that's important for me to share because it's, you know, a heart story, not just putting stuff out in the world, we don't need more noise in the world. So I dunno if that's making sense, but I think it's about the bylines that I wanna share feels like success.
Ruthie (06:15):
It feels like success to be able to choose the, I wanna work with people that have book ideas that feel exciting to me. People that have a passion for whatever they're writing about or are trying to get to aand, what that feels exciting to and successful. And it feels exciting to me. And I guess I'm using like exciting and successful now together. But I think what feels valuable to me, what feels good to is to be able to create a business and create a career that, you know, fulfills something inside of me. It's less about the money or it's definitely not about the fame. <laugh>
Harper (06:58):
Exactly. You're famous to us though.
Ruthie (07:01):
Oh, thank you.
Stephanie (07:02):
<laugh> yes. And given that you seem to have acquired this wisdom of sorts about what success means and how you're defining it. Now, my guess is that there probably were some times that weren't so easy and weren't so successful that helped you figure out sort of what was valuable to you or what was worth it. That was maybe outside of what your expectations were. So can you talk about a couple of times when things didn't go so well in your life and how that led you to this new definition of success?
Ruthie (07:41):
Wow. See, I mean, the funny thing is that so much of my life, I felt like things weren't going well, I can look back and say, what am I talking about? What am I thinking? Things were going well, that, that led me to, that led me to that. But for so much of my life, I felt like a complete failure. I'd been laid off from every job I've ever had in my entire life until I became my own boss part of it because the media industry is, you know, trying to figure itself out. And I was on that rocket ship that was diving into the metaphor. But, um, no, you know, I've been laid off from every job. So there's been a sense of failure that like, I can't make a job work. Whereas when I look back, it's like I was working for big companies that didn't know where they were going at the same time.
Ruthie (08:40):
I think I also felt like a failure because I felt like other people knew who they wanted to be, knew what they wanted to do. I had things that I knew were my strengths, but I wasn't sure what to make of them. I knew I wanted to work in like women and leadership and something around storytelling, but I didn't know what that would look like. And I was writing these stories for Forbes about women's economic power, which the whole topic was fascinating, but it didn't feel like after I wrote 5, 10, 15, 20 stories like I've that, but then I still had to keep. And then I finally women's voices who have stories to tell and stories to share, but didn't have a platform to do that. And now of course I can see that that's exactly what I'm doing with my business. But fact, in the day when I was an editor, I couldn't really formulate what I liked about what I was doing. I just knew I was good at it. And so for so long, I felt like I was on some long winding road, but didn't know where the road was going. And now I look back and I was like, the road was leading here.
Harper (10:04):
How did you know the strengths that you had because you acknowledge that, like there were things that you could identify in yourself. Did people give you credit for it? Was it the number of views that an essay got on Forbes that led you to believe that what you were doing was quality work and you were a good writer. How did you get to the point of understanding what your strengths were?
Ruthie (10:26):
I think it was a combination that people seemed to respond to my writing. I didn't really have an internal sense that I was a good writer for a really long time, like decades, but people were responsive. People were responsive to my editing and I definitely felt like I was making stories better. So there was that. So it felt like those were my strengths, but in order to succeed in a media company, you have to have a lot more than that. You have to be really good at branding yourself. And as you guys have seen, you know, those editors and writers that have branded themselves well have started running magazines. And for sure they've moved up, uh, way faster than I have, but that wasn't my strength. My strength was in the writing and the editing. And I feel like when I read research around women, it's like women don't wanna play whatever the political game is. So often when they're working, you know, in corporate jobs and I didn't wanna game just do what I do well, which so I wonder sometimes is that why I didn't keep some of those jobs because I was just sticking to the writing and, and not doing the branding and not doing the ask thing and not doing all the other stuff
Stephanie (11:45):
Or maybe it's cuz you just stuck to what you liked and you had something figured out maybe before you were ready to acknowledge how it could benefit you perhaps.
Ruthie (11:58):
No, I think sometimes that too. I, I mean I tell myself in those hours when like I'm in bed at sleep rises to I'm so I dunno
Stephanie (12:13):
<laugh> yes. I love that idea. Follow that one. <laugh> let me follow up on that. Well, I think there's often more, I mean with career there's personal life and what we don't see on LinkedIn or in the latest title, you know, that had you stayed in the marathon journey that is corporate life let's feel all clear about that you probably would have risen with the mediocrity let's say or not. Um, but you probably would've been to that title. Oftentimes there's a lot of personal life that's happening too. Yes. And so I'm wondering for you, if you would talk about any personal relationships or, you know, health issues or other things that maybe you were playing a role in how you were evolving, your thinking about what was valuable to you and how you wanted to continue to define either your career or how you spend your time as a writer, an editor
Ruthie (13:18):
I struggled for wow. At least half of my twenties and all of my thirties with the idea of whether I wanted to be a mother. I mean, that has really been a defining question of so much of my life. And I dunno exactly how it relates to my career. Cause I would like to say, or at least I told myself when I was younger, that I did not change my career in any way to prepare for the time when I might be a mother. Right. I had so many friends, even in their twenties who were like, okay, I'm kinda scaling back because when I'm a mom, I'm gonna need to have a certain career path. And I was like, what? I mean, you're strategically thinking about this stuff in your early to mid twentie. That was not me. I mean later I kicked myself for not being strategic enough to think about those things.
Ruthie (14:08):
But at the time I was like, my career is skyrocketing. Um, it wasn't skyrocketing, but in my mind it would skyrocket at some point. But what really haunted me and still does a bit is that I didn't know if I wanted to a being told that, you know, some bell alarm clock was gonna go, was gonna, that I was a, and it didn't, I wasn't able to separate my internal feelings from what the outside world was telling me. I mean, I still don't know like how does a woman, I mean, we're told so many things about who we're supposed to be in the world. How do we know what we really want versus what we're told versus wanting to wanting to fit in? I just had no idea. I remember going to my therapist and my therapist saying multiple times, what percentage of you wants to be a mom?
Ruthie (15:06):
And like, how do you put a number on these things? Right. But finally at one point I said, it was like, even though so much of my life was about trying to figure out the question. Even after all of the books I read, I can like point to a zillion books. All of the people I talked to, I literally interviewed women. I knew about how they decided to become moms. Cause I thought maybe I'd write a book because I just couldn't figure it out. But even after all of the years of that, I still only wanted a baby 55%. Ultimately I decided I wanted a baby more than I didn't and was enough that five was enough. Even if it was 50, it would've enough. I think this whole idea that we have to be like all in on something to move feels like such a detriment to, to people because I think so much of life is dipping your toe into things, trying things out, you can't dip your toe into having a child.
Ruthie (16:13):
Um, and now having had one, I know that, but I think you can move forward and make decisions and try to line things up in your life without being a hundred. And so the idea is that I didn't know what I wanted to do about the idea of having children. And at the time when I was 31, I had met a man who I ultimately ended up married to who didn't want children. And I thought, well, there you go. There's my decision. I don't want children. Then he didn't. I should feel lucky that I met someone that loves me as much as he did. I was from a family of divorce. My mom has struggled her whole life to be in good relationships with men that she felt loved by. And that she loved. I should feel lucky. This is enough, right? Why is this not enough for me? And so I moved forward and married him on the one hand telling myself, well, we don't need to have a kid. At least I have love. And he's awesome. And he treats me, well, he doesn't beat me as if that's like a gold star for not beating someone. You know? So on the hand I told myself it's to just have love. And on the other hand I told myself, he'll change his mind. <laugh> um, neither thing worked true.
Stephanie (17:44):
How much control did you think you had over that decision? At the time,
Ruthie (17:49):
There was a part of me that thought, you know, I read all the feminists that especially the writers and Sexton and um, oh God, like all of the writers. I great examples. They both kill themselves.
Stephanie (18:09):
The role model we all want.
Ruthie (18:11):
Exactly. But I read all those female, you know, the feminist writers that I loved. And I said to myself, you know, maybe there's some secret here that I don't understand. Maybe the better thing to do is to not have a child and be able to have the fulfilling life, whatever that would look like that I want. But then I kept coming up against what would that be like? Then I have felt like I had to create a masterpiece. Like what would my masterpiece be? That would be big enough all consuming enough that not having a child would be worth, it would be worth giving up whatever this dream is. You know, it felt like baby or masterpiece both felt like really high bars to try to attain
Stephanie (18:59):
Because those are the only two options.
Ruthie (19:03):
Yes, literally I did. I'm kidding. <laugh> no, I know. But I actually do think for women. Yes. That is it. You either need to like the women who haven't had children, Gloria Steinem, right. Or, um, any number Oprah, you've got to be Oprah or Gloria Steinem for it to be worth it. Of course this isn't true. But in my mind it's like, oh, well they gave up a child because look where they, but if you're Stein and I was sure, my mid thirties that, that wasn't the path that I was on. Then it was like, or what are you fucking gonna do? I mean, to answer your question stuff, the science, I thought I can freeze my egg and freeze time. I thought that I could put on ice. This decision of, I don't know whether I want a child. I married to someone who I deeply love, who does not want a child. And I don't. And if I can just freeze my then time to a decision, but I don't think I realize that I couldn't freeze. Time was still marching forward. I was still getting here. I was raising my eyes at 35, but then I was 36 and 37 and 38. And I still had no idea. And that really felt, I mean, each year felt more and more disheartening.
Harper (20:32):
Who were you talking to at this time about this topic? Cuz it sounds like in the media world you had friends and colleagues, but were you all talk about the business sense or were you having these conversations about fertility or becoming a mother, your relationship and this challenge who were those go-to people for you? If they existed,
Ruthie (20:55):
They didn't not that they didn't exist. I should be clear. The people were there. I was filled with shame. I was filled with so much shame that I had done it wrong. I had married a man who I knew didn't children and I thought maybe I wouldn't, but I willing to give it a try. Um, I was filled with so much shame that I had done it wrong that I had like dragged this man down with me in some way, because I couldn't figure my shit out that I wanted too much. I mean, that was it. It was shame. I didn't talk to and I, I asked people about their own lives, about their own decisions. I read Megan. Dom's amazing book about people that didn't have women and men who didn't have children. I read Lori Li's book, maybe baby. I read all these books. I looked Patrick sway. I love Patrick sway. You guys. I have to tell you
Stephanie (22:03):
Who doesn't.
Ruthie (22:04):
I mean, sway. His were married for years and never had children. I'm like, if I could be married to Patrick Swayze, I wouldn't have a baby.
Stephanie (22:15):
That is the answer to any question, married to Patrick Swayze, everything would be good.
Harper (22:21):
So it's either Oprah status baby or married to Patrick Swayze. Not it noted
Stephanie (22:29):
Rest in peace. <laugh>
Ruthie (22:31):
Exactly. By the way. I didn't know. Patrick Swayze was when I had my research and then I found out he was dead and I literally spent a night crying half about Patrick's being and half about the fact that didn't know I'd ever be a,
Speaker 2 (22:50):
You really tortured yourself there.
Ruthie (22:52):
I did.
Harper (22:54):
So you talked about how there were people that you could have talked to you chose not to because of the shame which breaks my heart for you like 20 times over yet here, you found yourself writing an essay in the modern love column in the New York times globally known <laugh> newspaper, read by millions of people and you're sharing this most vulnerable story. Talk us through if coming out of that experience gave you any more feedback, you know, was that a conversation starter for you at that time? And if so, how did that help for you? You know, maybe to move forward from wherever you were at?
Ruthie (23:42):
Yeah. So what's funny is that spend so much time. I had written 2, 3, 4 modern left columns before that one on other topic. I mean dancing around that same topic, but not that particular essay. And I was like I said, filled with so much shame. And then I thought I can't be only one that is in this situation. I talk to women all the time who are freezing their eggs or doing up some other fertility treatment. And they come to me with these topics. And so I just told myself, someone else must be in this situation and hear this story. Someone else needs to know that there are options out there. And the told are not the GS that sold by the fertility industry. I, there was also like a bit of feminist anger inside of me when I wrote that because literally these companies, these egg companies, clinics to their most vulnerable and are an insurance policy to me is a guarantee you're gonna get a payout. If the worst freezing there's an insurance policy, there's no payout, there's no guarantee. And yet go and look at any of the marketing. That's how it's sold. Also, when I read in the media about why women weren't having children, it was always because we were, and we were focused on our careers and that wasn't my experience. I mean, I'm, wasn't thinking, I was thinking about this a lot, but I just happened to be unsure of what I wanted to do with the rest of my life in terms of becoming a mom or not.
Stephanie (25:51):
So, as you were talking about it, I was reminded of the words that you actually wrote in that article where you talk about the fact that we internalize our anger, blaming ourselves for not being strategic enough or smart enough to avoid ending up in this position while being all too aware, of course, of how privileged we are to be able to afford these procedures in the first place, wrong, not by our careers or the promises of feminism or the partners who loved or didn't love us, but by a medical establishment that sold us the fantasy that we could have it all on our own schedule.
Stephanie (26:26):
I think what you tapped into there, Ruthie is something that, you know, going back to what you were saying about sort of being angry and with the feminist prospect of, you know, being able to make these choices and the pressure we put on ourselves as women to either have a masterpiece or a baby and how you were stuck in this conundrum, let's call it of time is fleeting. You're figuring this out. You're maybe not partnered with the right person to go on this journey and your career while externally seems quite successful. Maybe isn't always within your control either. So how did you come to the next chapter? I know that you talked about going out from the corporate world in your professional life and starting the freelance practice using your expertise in your chosen field, but then in your personal life, what's the other bookend, if you will, to that side of the story.
Ruthie (27:33):
So I think it's really funny. I was talking to someone the other day, who I had known in the media world, but we had just met and I was telling her about my divorce and my path to motherhood. And I slipped and said, when I left my husband and she was like, that's so brave of you. And I was like, actually go scratch that. I didn't leave my husband at all. After all that I had realized about maybe wanting kids, but not being sure, but going through a pretty harrowing procedure of egg freezing, which if anyone doesn't know, you know, they have to surgically remove your eggs. It's, it's a big deal. But I went through all of that, not even being a hundred percent sure I wanted children. And even after that, I stayed with my husband. And I think to myself, even today, I wonder if I would have ever left or if I would've just stayed because I thought I was supposed to, or I would've just stayed because I thought isn't this good enough.
Ruthie (28:42):
So ultimately he left me, but somehow in this conversation I was trying to flip it around like, oh, I left him. I'm so brave. Um, but I wasn't brave. And I mean, at all, I wasn't brave. I think it's hard to know what we want as women. I think even when we think we know what we want, we tell ourselves we don't deserve it. And I was convinced that even if I did realize at that point, I wanted a child that I had to stick with my decision and my commitment to marry this man who I loved and who loved me to be fair. And so I wouldn't have left. Is that brave? I don't know anymore. I think I used to be a lot more black and white about things. And maybe this is one of the things that age does to us is fills in some of those grays.
Ruthie (29:29):
Um, and then about six months after my divorce and by the way, it was very fast. When my husband woke up, I was about to turn 38 or 39. Actually. I was about to turn 39 and he woke up one day and said, I know you're gonna want a baby. And we have to get separated and take your time and figure out if you really wanna have a baby or not. And then we can decide whether we're gonna get back together. And I was shocked even though like all of this stuff was going through my own head. I think when you're the one that's left, it still always feels shocking. So I was shocked and we went to therapy for like four weeks, six weeks, even though we'd been together seven years, it was like really short and after like a month or so he said he used the D word.
Ruthie (30:18):
He said, actually we should get divorced. And I still thought, even when he said that, I still thought, oh, maybe I won't have a baby and we'll get back together. I think in retrospect, I needed to tell myself that so that I could like figure out how to stand on my own two feet. And I immediately like within the week that we got separated, went online to like every terrible app, which you guys know of, like, you know, coffees, bagel, and you know, all the fish in the sea. And literally it's all the just went on all of these and humiliated myself. Cause I do think online dating can be like both humiliating and wonderful. And after about six months, so six months after I got separated, I met somebody. And in that six months I went out on 60 dates, six zero days, but I had it down to a science.
Ruthie (31:19):
You guys, I would only go on walks, coffee walks, no dinners like that shit takes too long, just walks. They had to meet me in my neighborhood where I was working or where I lived. I'm not going, you know, to be upper west fucking side, no way. <laugh> I love you for that. And I was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I met somebody and six months after we met, he ended up committing suicide. Um, I thought this was somebody we had moved in together after three months. To me it felt like a whirlwind. I mean, now looking back like a zillion red flags, but what felt like a whirlwind was probably in retrospect, some sort of manic phase for him. And you know, we were in love. We were parents weed together of this stuff and was had dead. I mean, I hadn't even processed the grief and loss of my marriage.
Ruthie (32:14):
And now I was dealing with that and this man who I thought I had a future with and who I deeply cared about, if not loved and now was dead and felt like did I him with like, because we were talking about having babies and we went to the fertility doctor together to talk to them about our options. And did I push him somehow with my like neediness and my desire for a baby to push him over the edge, literally. And to be honest, listen, women are told we're too much. We're told we're too needy. We're told we're NA mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, I thought all of those things, it was internalized, but internalized from the outside as well as the inside. I dunno how else to say it. I thought I was all of those things. Yeah. And then, uh, six months later I met Rob and were totally different with Rob three dates before we even kissed.
Ruthie (33:20):
Like, it was like, I felt like kindergarters like discovering how to date again. You know, like we kind of laugh about it now, but he was recently separated, not even divorced yet. I had a divorce under my belt at that point, but also at death, we kind of laughed now that we had three ghosts in our relationship that we were bringing with us, my marriage, my boyfriend's death and his ex, uh, and then we were trying to make it work by then I was 39 and a half and I was like, I want a baby now. And yet we also had a lot of shit to get through, but everything in my brain was like, we can get through all this shit when the baby's here,
Stephanie (34:13):
You reclaimed your night. Oh wow. Well you reclaimed your naivete completely in this relationship with you <laugh>
Ruthie (34:18):
Oh my God. Yes. And then I remember sitting, I dunno if you've ever been to, um, cow, horse, sea girl, sea horse cowgirl in south street Seaport. They have like bingo on Tuesday night and like taco specials, whatever. It's really fun place. Anyway. I remember sitting there and being like, but we had already been dating like close to a year, Rob and I, and I remember saying to him, okay, when do you want a baby? And he said in a two and a half years now we've been dating almost a year. I was 40 or just about to be 40. And he said he wanted a baby in two and a half years. And he said, when do you want a baby? And I said today, yesterday, like now, and I was like, what are we? And he's in the middle somewhere. And I'm like, there's no middle, there's no compromise. You Don' like, and I mean, this was a, a real struggle. It was not like I met this man who was like all in on having a baby finally, after everything I'd been through, no, he was like, I like you a lot. You seem great. You seem like a person who, if I wanted a baby, I'd wanna have a baby with, but I don't know. You mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, which now having a baby is a totally fair thing to say. You wanna really know the person,
Stephanie (35:38):
It's one thing to have the baby, but then there's the oh, parenting <laugh> with another person
Ruthie (35:43):
It's a lifetime commitment
Stephanie (35:45):
Sort relationship you might have to out in order to raise this child. Right.
Ruthie (35:50):
You don't just the first you to make sure you know,
Stephanie (35:56):
Details. I mean, oh, details. <laugh>
Ruthie (35:58):
Yeah. I had plenty of friends that got the first, but,
Harper (36:01):
So how did you convince him
Ruthie (36:03):
Time? It was a lot of time. It wasn't even, I mean, it was convincing, it was me sitting there. I write my in my book that I imagine like this fantasy of like tying him to a chair and like having a piece of chalk and a Blackboard where I'm like, this is how old I am. And every day this is how much of my fertility's going down the tubes. And when you add all this up, its we have to have a baby now. And um, that's the fantasy. And when Rob read that part, he was like, you did do that. I like, I did not tie you to a chair.
Harper (36:38):
<laugh> he? Like,
Ruthie (36:41):
He did walk me through the, I did walk him through the didn't him so much as be like, we can only be together if we're gonna have a baby and I don't have much longer. We also talked to the fertility doctor together and the doctor said, you know, you don't have much longer, but we had my frozen eggs. And so that was always in the back of my head, like my slam dunk, our slam dunk. And so when I was 41 and a half, we went back to the doctor and we said, let's thaw the frozen eggs. And then at least we'll know how many we have or what the chances are. And we thought the 14 frozen eggs that I had and we waited the two weeks and we did all the things. And every step of the way was like more bad news after more bad news, after more bad news.
Ruthie (37:41):
And ultimately none of those 14 frozen eggs worked. So there I was 41, you know, going on 42 and we had no frozen eggs. And so the option was to try the natural way, meaning have a lot of sex mm-hmm <affirmative> but that hadn't been working or try IVF, but like immediately because the numbers on IVF at 41 and a half 42, the success rates are below 10%. And so all of a sudden I was like, we've got to do this now, are you in or out? And the other piece of that. So I, so there was the inner out, but I was also really fucking angry. I was angry. I was like, we waited all this time because you didn't know if you wanted to do this. Now we know we love each other, you know, you wanna do this, but it might be too late. And so we had to work through a lot of, and we're still working through a lot of resentment about like, is it his fault or is there anyone to blame? Let's say for the situation that we found ourselves in spending all of this money, spending all this energy and time and like colliding in this way, that felt like, oh my God, maybe we'll have a baby, but this relationship is gonna be damaged
Stephanie (39:05):
In some way. Right? Like, were you risking, sacrificing the love you had found together for this Uber goal of being parents and was there a time at all or did you ever question whether you wanted to keep going on with your pursuit of having a child?
Ruthie (39:25):
I think at that point I didn't, I mean, I told myself and I knew it was true that both Rob and I are creative people that we had such fulfilling lives. Even if we didn't have a child, that it would be fine. But I had friends that had up for any number of reasons, very valid ones. And I just didn't think I would've up. If anything would've made us give up, it would've been money. I mean, it had cost besides the, you know, 15,000 or whatever it had cost to originally freeze my eggs. And then there was the storage fees for those eggs for the six and a half years that they were stored, which was 1200 ish a year. Then when we thought those eggs and none of them worked, that was another 15,000. So there you are at like whatever, 30 something thousand. Yeah. Which round of IVF costs 25,000. And by the way, both of those rounds of IVF failed. And by then I was, you know, 42 and a half. So,
Stephanie (40:27):
So you've already paid for, you know, years of private school tuition before you've even had the child
Ruthie (40:33):
<laugh> before we even had the child
Stephanie (40:34):
Just trying to get pregnant. I dunno that enough people understand that how expensive this is and how grueling emotionally at the same time, you know? Yeah. Going through all of the stops and starts and hopes and failures, and maybe this will work. Maybe that'll work, lay down some more cash, you know, go through some more trauma.
Harper (40:57):
I also think there's a real lack of education around fertility and how few people do get pregnant naturally the fun wave
Ruthie (41:06):
<laugh>.
Harper (41:08):
So I wonder what you wish you knew or what you could share with our listeners on the approach to getting pregnant is not linear for everybody. No. And what you wish that you would know?
Ruthie (41:22):
No, not at all. I think what do I wish? I, I mean, what I said about egg freezing that it's no guarantee. The other thing that I wish I understood, like I thought IVF was a slam dunk because everyone I knew that talked about IVF had success. At some point it might have taken them five plus rounds, but they did eventually have success. But the truth is that far more people do not have success, but I'm telling you the reason why is the shame? The people that don't have success, don't talk about it. And so it's, um, self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> you hear from the people that were successful? So I didn't realize that the stats were like, you know, eight, 9% at 41. And then by the time you're 42, it's like four or 5%. And you go to these like online fertility, calculators that allegedly tell you what your percentage is.
Ruthie (42:20):
And they say like 21%, but they're based on false information. It's based on, like, if you already have a batch of normal embryos that are genetically tested to be chromosomally normal, then your chances are much higher. But when you are talking about just walking into the clinic, a woman off the street, walking into a clinic, the chances of coming home with a live birth, as they call it are extremely low and they don't tell you that. And it costs so much money and it's literally money out the window. Now I feel bad talking about it because there's a privilege here, right? Like we didn't end up on the streets because we paid $75,000. We had the money, like in our retirement that we could take out, it hurt to take it out, but like we had it, but there's lots of people that don't have it.
Ruthie (43:14):
Yeah. And so they don't have access to, to starting family. So that's a whole nother topic. But when I think about that, the average annual salary in the United States is 52,000, I think now. And I think about what we spent it's sickening, right? And then we had two rounds of IVF fail. And then we ended up deciding to use donor eggs, which was a very hard decision. Right. If you can imagine the idea of, you know, when we think about having a baby, I feel like there's this sense of, you know, connection to our ancestors. Being able to like, hold the baby up in the mirror and look in their eyes and be like, I see my dad's nose or I see my mom's hair, whatever. Or just knowing that you like resemble them in some way. And of course, tons of moms don't resemble their kids for any number of reasons.
Ruthie (44:09):
Um, it's just like, you know, the mix that you get. But when I thought about having a baby that didn't resemble me there, wasn't related to me, uh, genetically it brought this idea that I had failed in some way front and sin. Again, I hadn't been strategic enough. I married the wrong man. I didn't think about having a baby in my twenties. I didn't even know in my mid thirties, if I wanted to have a baby. And so it felt in a way, like I had cursed myself, like I had cursed myself to the extent that I was being punished now, by not being able to have a baby with my own DNA.
Stephanie (44:47):
So there's that shame thing that shame rearing its head again, the should dos and the, I could have known, I could have made different decisions. And here you are, you're getting pregnant with a donor egg and the complexity that you just laid out. So bring us to where you are with it. Now you've had a daughter and she's what almost two. And so where's the should Shay person. Have you released some of that? And if you have, how have you done that? What has helped you to let go of some of those should dos?
Ruthie (45:33):
So I think the thing that feels the strongest to me right now is the bond, I always worry that there would be a wedge between us because we don't share DNA. She would feel like something is different. Like I wasn't her real mother in some way, I felt like it, I would feel like an imposter. And I think there are always those moments that we are it's ugly head, right? Like someone says, oh, she looks just like you. And I think to myself, no she doesn't. Or, you know, whatever the case may be. There's these moments, these like fleeting moments throughout the day, or, you know, sometimes once a week at times, but they're there and they come up sometimes I think about how am I gonna tell mm-hmm <affirmative> and it like takes my breath away that I feel emotional thinking about it, but it like hurts my heart. Sometimes when I think about how will I be able to explain to her that I love her more than life itself. And we had to use someone else's egg and I don't even know what it means. How can I explain it to her? She's not even,
Harper (46:40):
You have some time,
Ruthie (46:42):
You have some time to figure it out. But this thing that helps is the bond that I know we've created. Uh, when she hugs me out of nowhere, that kind of thing. And I read a book called the genetic lottery, my interview, the author, she's amazing you guys. And she was saying love. Isn't about, you know, genetics and DNA. Love is about taking care of someone and in the care taking you grow to love them. And I would, I would have to say there isn't more care. At least not in my life. Not yet. There hasn't been more care than, you know, every night waking up and the changing of the diaper and our love has grown. Uh, I see my friends on Instagram or whatever pictures that they're just born babies. And they're like, we're so in love. And to be honest, I mean, I'm so in love now, almost two years in, but I don't think that I was so in love the first minute she was born. I think, you know, I was like excited and this was like a new adventure. I wasn't so in love. But now two years in, we hug each other. You know, she likes to lay on my bed next to me. And I think, you know, I couldn't love her more if she was from my own DNA. And then there's a little voice in the back of my head that says, but how do you know
Harper (48:06):
Yourself? You yourself.
Ruthie (48:08):
That's what Rob says. He's like, you're always torturing yourself.
Stephanie (48:12):
Yeah. But I think we torture ourselves about a lot of things that too, as women we're so good at this self, for lack of a better term.
Ruthie (48:21):
Yeah. It was funny. Um, I'll just say one more thing about this that I was talking to another friend who also used donor eggs and she was saying, do you ever feel like you have to do like twice as much as other moms just to reach the baseline of good mom? And the answer is yes. I think other moms that have their children, the natural way, whatever the natural way is anymore, or other moms that share DNA with their children, I should say, they get to know that they're their child's mom, it's in the blood, right. It's cellular. Um, I feel like I have to work twice as hard to convince myself and in my mind convince Clementine that I'm her mother and that a lot of emotional labor. And I really hope that someday I can let go of that and just be,
Harper (49:17):
So you mentioned at one point that you're writing a book and I know it's about this topic. Can you give us a little sneak peek to that?
Ruthie (49:27):
<laugh> yeah. It's called the mother code. And it's about these questions. The ones that I'm talking about here, what does it mean to be a mother? What does DNA even mean? What is the maternal instinct? Do we have a maternal instinct? The question that keeps me up at night is what does it mean to, to start a family? What does it mean to love a child? And I don't know the answer. I always thought that, you know, we fetishize blood in this culture. Blood is thicker than water, right. And can you love somebody? And can you be a mom without blood, without Dan? I mean, I do know the answer, but I think that it's a tough question to peel apart to unravel because we don't have role models in our culture. And when we do, there are so many people that use donor edge. There are so many famous people that use donor edge, but because we only show the one past in motherhood, we don't get to talk about these conversations and there's a lot of shame around them. And that's why I'm writing this book. That's the, that's my hope. You know, the hope is not just for me to tell my story. This is one story it's, it's not that important. But I do think the questions that I'm hoping, the book raises are really important questions. Yeah.
Harper (51:04):
And I think it'll make so many people feel so much less alone that think that they're going through this in an isolated way, just like you did. I'm sure in going through this and all the years leading up to it, that there are other ways to become a mother. However, you identify your connection and, and finding a way that works for you.
Stephanie (51:26):
I was gonna tell you Ruthie with a 16 and 13 year old myself, regardless of how I got here, you never figure out how to be the right kind of mom. So <laugh> keep asking those questions. It doesn't matter whether it's your egg or somebody else's. But, uh, let me know if you figure that out, I'll be interested. Well,
Ruthie (51:47):
I'm waiting by the way, I'm waiting. And I've talked to Rob and our therapist about this, waiting for her to get teenager and be like, well, you're not my real mom anyway.
Harper (51:57):
Oh,
Ruthie (52:00):
Don't that too. Right? And Rob's like, you have to have thicker skin. It's true. I probably do have to have thicker skin, but at the same time, it's like my heart. I can't imagine what that's gonna be like.
Stephanie (52:12):
Yeah. We'll talk, we'll talk. When you get to that point, feel
Harper (52:16):
Like as a writing teacher, you need to give yourself an exercise, like to write the letter that you want. Give her if you haven't already done that.
Ruthie (52:25):
I wanna, I haven't. No, but I wanna
Stephanie (52:29):
So last question, given our conversation, which by the way, I'm so excited to listen to this back. It's phenomenal. Thank you. You talked about your past decisions and places in life of thinking, oh, this is good enough. This is good enough. I'm I'm good enough. You know, whether it was in your marriage or what time it was gonna be the correct time to have a child or which relationship you went to next today. Right now, when you hear the phrase it's good enough. What does that evoke for you? Has that changed?
Ruthie (53:05):
Yeah. Now it's finally changed. <laugh> and yeah, I think to myself, I'm in a relationship that's really loving where we both love each other deeply and respect each other. I finally have a baby and there's no question that it was the right decision to have a baby. I can't imagine in any other way. I can't imagine if I had stayed in my marriage and not had a baby. And finally, I mean, I guess this brings us back to where we started. I have created a career for myself that feels really fulfilling in all of these ways that I don't think a career at a media company, even a big media company with a fancy name, would've made me feel so it, in a way there's like a pride for myself in really having to dig through the muck, as I like to say and create the life that I wanted. But damn like, it took so much like, did I have to go through all of this? Wasn't there an easier way. I mean, sometimes I'm just like Ruth, like, couldn't you just be happy with, but no, I wouldn't have been. And so now I am happy and it is good enough. And there are plenty of times where I'm like, I'm so fucking tired, like ha or I'm so this or I'm so that, but you know what? Like, this is good enough.
Harper (54:36):
Oh, what a sound bite. You're fucking amazing. You can't do any better than that. Thanks so much for sharing your story with us and talking to us. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you
Ruthie (54:49):
Absolutely. On Ruthie ackerman.net? I know it's not Ruthie ackerman.com. It's dot net. And on Instagram at R U Ackerman. That's R U a C K E R M a N and also at R Ackerman on Twitter.
Harper (55:07):
Amazing. Thank you so much, Ruth.
